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	<title>Comments on: Book &#8216;Em, Ringo</title>
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	<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php</link>
	<description>Carl Wilson on music, arts and culture</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Matt Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5901</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5901</guid>
		<description>...cough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;cough.</p>
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		<title>By: Voyno</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5895</link>
		<dc:creator>Voyno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5895</guid>
		<description>How Nickelback destroyed CanCon or possibly How CanCon destroyed Canadian Radio muisc, is a book that WILL be written soon enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How Nickelback destroyed CanCon or possibly How CanCon destroyed Canadian Radio muisc, is a book that WILL be written soon enough.</p>
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		<title>By: john s.</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5894</link>
		<dc:creator>john s.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5894</guid>
		<description>Listening to some James P. Johnson this morning, it occurred to me that Wald's thesis parallels complaints to this day that swing ruined jazz, by making it smooth (though still dance-oriented), and arty, with the soloist being featured.  Of course, bop subsequently ruined jazz again (according to swing fundamentalists), and then free jazz did yet again (according to bop fundamentalists), as did fusion.  It wouldn't surprise me if Wald talks about all of this.  I will track down his book.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Listening to some James P. Johnson this morning, it occurred to me that Wald&#8217;s thesis parallels complaints to this day that swing ruined jazz, by making it smooth (though still dance-oriented), and arty, with the soloist being featured.  Of course, bop subsequently ruined jazz again (according to swing fundamentalists), and then free jazz did yet again (according to bop fundamentalists), as did fusion.  It wouldn&#8217;t surprise me if Wald talks about all of this.  I will track down his book.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: john s.</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5892</link>
		<dc:creator>john s.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 04:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5892</guid>
		<description>Rock dominated the singles market by the '60s; Elvis was far and away the best-selling singles artist in the 2nd half of the '50s; Fats Domino was Top 5.  I don't know how one would evaluate singles v. album sales.  Lots of huge rock stars have never been much of a force in the singles market.  Top 10 '90s singles artists, in order:
Mariah
Janet
Madonna
Boyz II Men
Whitney
Celine
R. Kelly
Puff Daddy
TLC
Michael Bolton

Singles don't tell the whole story, obviously; but rock historians seem to have wanted singles to tell the story of the '50s and '60s, which seems to be part of Wald's point.  With the exceptions of Janet and Madonna (and maybe Puff?), a landslide of rock critics disdained everybody on that list back in the day.  
 
(Source:  Billboard Book of Top 40 Hits, 1955 to 2000, bought for a quarter at a yard sale.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rock dominated the singles market by the &#8217;60s; Elvis was far and away the best-selling singles artist in the 2nd half of the &#8217;50s; Fats Domino was Top 5.  I don&#8217;t know how one would evaluate singles v. album sales.  Lots of huge rock stars have never been much of a force in the singles market.  Top 10 &#8217;90s singles artists, in order:<br />
Mariah<br />
Janet<br />
Madonna<br />
Boyz II Men<br />
Whitney<br />
Celine<br />
R. Kelly<br />
Puff Daddy<br />
TLC<br />
Michael Bolton</p>
<p>Singles don&#8217;t tell the whole story, obviously; but rock historians seem to have wanted singles to tell the story of the &#8217;50s and &#8217;60s, which seems to be part of Wald&#8217;s point.  With the exceptions of Janet and Madonna (and maybe Puff?), a landslide of rock critics disdained everybody on that list back in the day.  </p>
<p>(Source:  Billboard Book of Top 40 Hits, 1955 to 2000, bought for a quarter at a yard sale.)</p>
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		<title>By: zoilus</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5889</link>
		<dc:creator>zoilus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Neal, you've just given a precis of, approx., chapters 12, 14 and 15 of Wald's book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neal, you&#8217;ve just given a precis of, approx., chapters 12, 14 and 15 of Wald&#8217;s book.</p>
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		<title>By: Neal</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5888</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5888</guid>
		<description>Nice piece Carl.

What gets ignored a lot by people is that it took a long time for rock music to become the best selling music in the country. The top selling albums for much of the 50's and 60's were soundtracks to musicals and the sheer volumes of those pressings are ubiquitous until today. It wasn't until around 1968 that rock and roll as we've come to know it became a dominant purchased genre in the states and arguably not until the 70's where rock artists became the most successful game in pop music (something which would fluctuate in the 80's and 90's). 

Usually a top flight band or act (Elvis, Beatles, Hendrix) would chart some of the best selling records but would get edged out by the broad-based and older demographics for something like West Side Story or Herb Alpert. Bob Dylan was quick to point out to an interviewer recently that he views many of his records as underground affairs since he began in a field where Sinatra and his ilk were the dominant force in music.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice piece Carl.</p>
<p>What gets ignored a lot by people is that it took a long time for rock music to become the best selling music in the country. The top selling albums for much of the 50&#8217;s and 60&#8217;s were soundtracks to musicals and the sheer volumes of those pressings are ubiquitous until today. It wasn&#8217;t until around 1968 that rock and roll as we&#8217;ve come to know it became a dominant purchased genre in the states and arguably not until the 70&#8217;s where rock artists became the most successful game in pop music (something which would fluctuate in the 80&#8217;s and 90&#8217;s). </p>
<p>Usually a top flight band or act (Elvis, Beatles, Hendrix) would chart some of the best selling records but would get edged out by the broad-based and older demographics for something like West Side Story or Herb Alpert. Bob Dylan was quick to point out to an interviewer recently that he views many of his records as underground affairs since he began in a field where Sinatra and his ilk were the dominant force in music.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5885</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5885</guid>
		<description>Regarding MJ:

I was listening to Off the Wall recently (who &lt;i&gt;hasn't&lt;/i&gt; been?), and dammit if "Girlfriend" doesn't start all Talking Heads and end up all Mariah. So: "black music" inspired by rock inspired by black music, turning into the beginning of a whole style of r'n'b. No wonder he'll be so missed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding MJ:</p>
<p>I was listening to Off the Wall recently (who <i>hasn&#8217;t</i> been?), and dammit if &#8220;Girlfriend&#8221; doesn&#8217;t start all Talking Heads and end up all Mariah. So: &#8220;black music&#8221; inspired by rock inspired by black music, turning into the beginning of a whole style of r&#8217;n'b. No wonder he&#8217;ll be so missed.</p>
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		<title>By: john s.</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5873</link>
		<dc:creator>john s.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 05:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5873</guid>
		<description>And:  The pervasiveness of reggae influence on white rock acts throughout the '70s and beyond, from Eric Clapton to the Clash and the Police, and then the (related but not identical) ska revival, and on and on.  It's funny to think of Eric Clapton and the Clash and PiL drawing from the same well.

Cohn's book is an anomaly -- widely regarded as the first great rock book, and no influence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And:  The pervasiveness of reggae influence on white rock acts throughout the &#8217;70s and beyond, from Eric Clapton to the Clash and the Police, and then the (related but not identical) ska revival, and on and on.  It&#8217;s funny to think of Eric Clapton and the Clash and PiL drawing from the same well.</p>
<p>Cohn&#8217;s book is an anomaly &#8212; widely regarded as the first great rock book, and no influence.</p>
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		<title>By: zoilus</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5872</link>
		<dc:creator>zoilus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 05:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5872</guid>
		<description>Wald acknowledges that the anti-Beatles thing is a cliche in certain circles, actually, just that it's not the canonical story, the VH1 story... 

Your other points are well taken, but it's certainly true that a lot of disco-era rock explicitly positioned itself against disco in a way I don't think sixties-era rock explicitly opposed soul (they just began to neglect it). 

Another thing Wald ignores is post-punk and New Wave, where disco-rock/R&amp;B-rock/funk-punk blends were very common, from the Talking Heads to the Eurythmics to the Gang of Four. And even in a sense Madonna! But *more* 80s bands certainly took their black influences from blues and Motown, especially as the decade wore on - Huey Lewis, Dire Straits, Phil Collins etc. 

And then there were the R&amp;B acts with rock influences, such as Michael Jackson and Prince.

And then hip-hop went mainstream and things split again.... But yeah, it's way more complicated than Wald suggests. 

But that problem with the thesis really, really doesn't downgrade the rest of the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wald acknowledges that the anti-Beatles thing is a cliche in certain circles, actually, just that it&#8217;s not the canonical story, the VH1 story&#8230; </p>
<p>Your other points are well taken, but it&#8217;s certainly true that a lot of disco-era rock explicitly positioned itself against disco in a way I don&#8217;t think sixties-era rock explicitly opposed soul (they just began to neglect it). </p>
<p>Another thing Wald ignores is post-punk and New Wave, where disco-rock/R&amp;B-rock/funk-punk blends were very common, from the Talking Heads to the Eurythmics to the Gang of Four. And even in a sense Madonna! But *more* 80s bands certainly took their black influences from blues and Motown, especially as the decade wore on - Huey Lewis, Dire Straits, Phil Collins etc. </p>
<p>And then there were the R&amp;B acts with rock influences, such as Michael Jackson and Prince.</p>
<p>And then hip-hop went mainstream and things split again&#8230;. But yeah, it&#8217;s way more complicated than Wald suggests. </p>
<p>But that problem with the thesis really, really doesn&#8217;t downgrade the rest of the book.</p>
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		<title>By: john s.</title>
		<link>http://www.zoilus.com/documents/in-depth/2009/002186.php/comment-page-1#comment-5869</link>
		<dc:creator>john s.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zoilus.com/?p=002186#comment-5869</guid>
		<description>White rock acts ignored black influence after the Beatles got arty?  Huh?  

Has Mr. Wald (whose work I have read elsewhere and always esteemed very much) not heard of this little British Invasion combo (born in Australia) named the Bee Gees?  

I mean, wow.

Forget indie rock, listen to adult contemporary.  Hip hop's influence is pervasive on current rock acts, including the much-loathed Jack Johnson and Dave Matthews Band.

Practically the first book of rock history that people still read, "Rock from the Beginning" by Nik Cohn, advances the same thesis that Wald does, along with your emendation, Carl.  He says that Dylan and the Beatles ruined rock and roll -- or, more specifically, the kind he loved, the noisy lusty beat-oriented kind.  By making it arty.  

Buddy Rich story is great though.  Stanley Dance said the same thing about bop.  Square.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>White rock acts ignored black influence after the Beatles got arty?  Huh?  </p>
<p>Has Mr. Wald (whose work I have read elsewhere and always esteemed very much) not heard of this little British Invasion combo (born in Australia) named the Bee Gees?  </p>
<p>I mean, wow.</p>
<p>Forget indie rock, listen to adult contemporary.  Hip hop&#8217;s influence is pervasive on current rock acts, including the much-loathed Jack Johnson and Dave Matthews Band.</p>
<p>Practically the first book of rock history that people still read, &#8220;Rock from the Beginning&#8221; by Nik Cohn, advances the same thesis that Wald does, along with your emendation, Carl.  He says that Dylan and the Beatles ruined rock and roll &#8212; or, more specifically, the kind he loved, the noisy lusty beat-oriented kind.  By making it arty.  </p>
<p>Buddy Rich story is great though.  Stanley Dance said the same thing about bop.  Square.</p>
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